So, in reference to an article that Scott posted up, which was in turn inspired by an article that Satoshi pointed out, here are a few thoughts about fansubs. Of course, I can see the evils and dangers of fansubbing, but I wanted to make a few counterpoints as well. Now this is in no way meant to be a diss or even a true rebuttal; I simply like to play devil’s advocate. In fact I was going to leave this as a comment, except that it started to get too long, and I totally respect Scott’s opinion on the matter.
The natural question is whether or not the evils of fansubbing outweigh the good. If there weren’t two sides to the coin, we wouldn’t have any argument. Scott declares that fansubs are killing the anime market in the US, but I can’t say I’m convinced. One of the main reasons I disagree is that the anime market is quite new in this country. It’s not as if fansubs are impossible to compete against either. When dealing with fansubs, you often give up picture quality, timeliness, translation quality, and availability in exchange for the fact that the fansub is free. Although it’s not a perfect analogy, bottled water has shown that you can compete against free products. I’m of the opinion that anime marketers in this country have not yet learned to market to their audience properly yet. With such a nascent industry, how can one state definitively that the fansub community is killing the market, especially when the market was born rather recently out of the hard work of the fansub community? Was there a golden age of anime sales in America that suddenly died as fansubbing activity increased? I’m not ruling out this possibility, it’s just that I’d like to see some data or studies before I will be swayed to believe these claims.
When I say availability, you have to think about series that are not hot on the fansubbing radar. As an example, I have been waiting to learn the end of Kaleido Star for goodness knows how long. As soon as I move to a place where I have more space (I have to store my manga in plastic bins under the bed for lack of space), I plan on purchasing the series, especially since it’s unlikely that the fansubs will ever finish up. However, if not for the fansubs, I would never have touched KS with a 10-foot pole. If you wanted to watch Naruto episode 136, and it was out on both fansub and DVD right this instant, the fansub would definitely be more popular, but what about if you are looking for the arc where Haku met his end? Here’s where the DVD market becomes more attractive, because torrents don’t last forever, and anyone who watches fansubs can tell you that older episodes of even popular series can be very difficult to find (they don’t even have to be that old). Anime companies have distinct advantages over fansubbers, because they can pay people to work for them and they can work on their products every business day. The playing field is not completely uneven. BTW, when is iAnime starting up?
Another aspect I want to point out is that products do not only include DVDs. Maybe those fansub-leeching fanboys only bought a Naruto plushie at the con, but how many people would have bought a Naruto anything without the ready-made audience that the fansubs provided? I can’t stress enough that it’s not as black-and-white as people seem to think. Just as another personal bit of evidence, I have spent hundreds upon hundreds of dollars on manga that I would not have bought if it were not for fansubs. This stuff is too expensive to buy blindly, and yet it’s not promoted that well. So maybe I never bought a single Kenshin DVD… however, I own every single volume of Kenshin manga as well as every Kenshin artbook, and even some Kenshin yaoi doujinshi (long story, it was a gift of misguided generosity). And these aren’t even the translated volumes! I probably would have bought the American version if not for the fact that I have no self-control and had already bought the Japanese versions by the time the translated volumes began coming out. If I had to blame anyone for my impulsive shopping, I’d blame the fansubbers.
What I think is happening is that the fansubbers create an environment where the American marketers have a prepared audience and established market data. When the DVDs hit the shelves, viewers want to know “Why should I pay money for this?” and have yet to be given a satisfactory answer. I think American marketers need to consider whether the potential customer have bought the product if he/she had never seen the fansub? If not, then perhaps the fault does not lay solely with the fansubbing community. You can’t depend on fansubbing as your sole marketing and then complain when it works too well. I don’t want to hear that I should feel guilty because I watched the fansub and didn’t buy the DVD when it finally came out; I want to hear why the DVD is so much better, and how great the quality of animation and translation are on the DVD version.
Here’s a final example of what I mean. Would you buy a whole season of say… Alias or The Chapelle Show without having watched any episodes? What if you enjoyed it, but not enough to pick up the season on DVD? Would you have bought it if you hadn’t watched it and enjoyed it? After you watched it and enjoyed it, is the probability that you will buy the DVD or recommend it to a friend lessened from when you knew nothing about the series and saw the DVD? I’m not putting forth the answers, just the questions.
I can’t help being skeptical about how big and bad fansubbers are made out to be. This isn’t the same as ripping a CD, because it takes a lot of work to sub an episode of anime. If the losses are so horrible, why not just pay the fansubbers to not not release fansubs? Or hire them for goodness sake! Are companies saying that they cannot compete against the swelling ranks of god-like teams of unpaid volunteers that sub anime in their free time?
One disturbing trend, however: Mahou Sensei Negima. I can seriously see this being the industry’s answer to fansubbing. Take a great series, give it crap animation on TV, and then on the DVD offer completely redone episodes. Fiendish!
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i think that that another option to increase people buying dvds, is to ONLY allow low quality fansubs…
people are going to do it anyway, and they’re going to rip dvds as well. If the studio actually had low quality video for download, or asked fansubbers to only releace LQ rips, then that would be a BIG reason to buy legit dvds !
plus it would give people a chance to try before buy…
my $0.02
I’m not sure why fansubbers would ease up on episode quality. I personally think the fansubbing community is too big to be stopped right now. (heck they were one of bit torrent’s first users)
The would be smart to cooperate with them and come to a compermise. Why can’t they be like the Korean Drama community and provide accurate translations and subtitles over original voices?
I just hope this situation never turns ugly. Like MPAA or RIAA ugly.
>willuknight
The idea of releasing only LQ rips is a rather ingenious idea — perhaps the studios could mandate that fansubs should only be released at a 400×300 resolution. However, I seriously doubt that such a mandate would be effective in the real world, or indeed, whether the fansubbers would even listen to the producers — Gankutsuou was released without the onus of the producers, and Naruto is commonly available, despite being licensed.
Personally, I think the ethical quandry over fansubbers is moot. In a worst/best-case scenario, if you wipe out fansubbers, the only people left are the DVD ISO distributers (i.e. KAA), whom are much more difficult to wipe out.
The quote below echoes some of my sentiments on this supposed evils of fansubbing.
Originally posted on ANN forum by Septeus7:
“The Anime industry rode into town on the back of the internet beast but the beast won’t stop. Once again the industry needs to relized that there’s no free lunch. The Net giveth and and Net taketh away.”
>>Kabitzin: Eh, Kenshin yaoi doujinshi? *lol*
KAA doesn’t distribute DVD ISOs, they distribute encodes based on DVD sources.
I’ll see if I find the 3-4 hours to write a decent reply to Scott’s initial posting. Because I think he’s 90% wrong.
>>David: Personally, I think the ethical quandry over fansubbers is moot.
This is exactly how I feel. When I was still fansubbing, I felt strongly about fansubbing ethics. 2 years later, I still care, but when I can’t even convince my best friends to financially support anime I’ve given up trying to actively change things. If there’s enough money to be made, things will take care of themselves. As long as I can watch fansubs, I will watch fansubs (I want my content _now_). As long as buying DVD’s supports anime, I will buy DVD’s.
Fansubbing really isn’t the point, the root of the problem is the Internet and digital media. Ten’s quote sums it up quite nicely, even if it’s a bit more complicated than that.
>rixot
Whoa, no way — it’s really interesting to hear about fansubbing ethics from the point of view of a fansubber, instead of anime production companies (Gonzo), American licensing companies (ADV), or leechers (me ^^)
Just to test a theory, it’d be interesting to know if one can make the assumption that *all* fansubbing groups care about the financial stability of anime producers & artists.
Releasing Low Quality DVD is just a very lame idea. Even if, after countless negotiations, ALL fansubbers agree to compromise, heck, there are plenty of bilingual people who can download non-English fansubs. It’s not as though English fansubs is the only way out. XD
it would work against all the “ethical” fansubbers who say try and justify it,,,
personally i think illegal is illegal, either you care or don’t care but trying to wriggle out of loopholes is just to ease your own councience
Well, I don’t know much about ethics or what’s “illegal” or not, these are way too subjective. Take what was considered as ethical and legal 1000 years ago by the Roman Catholic church compared to the Church today…
All this debate comes down to is money… Anime studios are “losing” money from people watching their shows without seeing commercials, from lost DVD sales, etc. And with these as their premises, the artists are making it sound like the end of the world is coming for them… their cash cow is gone! This is all illegal etc. Their big-money lawyers definitely think so, and will go to court to argue it is so.
I don’t think LQ solution, as interesting as it sounds, will work. Fansubbers want good quality products.. Also, if I was an artist, I don’t know if I want thousands of people looking at a LQ of my work. >.
A wild idea to throw into the pot… (stupid thing cut off my last post..)
Make some innovative commercials that tie into the storyline, kindly ask the fansubber community not to cut out those commercials, and charge advertisers for them. I won’t mind watching a 30 second commercial / episode (non-repetitive) if it’s intersting enough. I can also just forward past it, if I don’t like it. I don’t know if it’ll work in the long run, but at least the first couple instances will garner some attention from the Fansub community, I bet.
I totally agree that fansubs encourage people to look for the DVDs of the series they liked the most, and some times even work as a kind of publicity for some shows. But I have to say that the american anime on DVD market is pretty big, considering the amount of series that are released in DVD (I have just a vague idea since I don’t live in the US).
Basically I think fansubs are very useful to make it possible to see some series that may even never be released in your country (here in Brazil that’s the basic idea) or to have an idea of what you’re buying or intend to buy.
And as I see it when realeasing something into DVD companies should make it good enough so people who have already seen it buy the DVD beacause of its quality and/or extra features.
F*ck the dvd anime market. The DVDs have a Japanese voice and English subititle option, however there is no care taken with the fansubs. They are not accurate, they are anglosised to something similar to and American English cartoon. The DVD market is for Americans as well. The dubs, well dubs are crap anyway, but they are even worse, normally with crappy annoying Texan accents. I have nothing against Texan accents, but not for Japanese looking anime characters, that is just stupid.
As for the DVDs, well if they charage 15bucks, or 15quid in the UK which is 28US for 3eps of DBZ, they can go f*ck themselves. I never bought anime in the UK, I got into it thru fansubs, so if anything they have increased my likelihood to buy a DVD, but it would have to be the Jap DVD with English subtitles. Also, fansubs of unlicensed materials are not illegal, and infact serve as promotional materials – see Gundam Seed. Most fansubbers stop when its licensed, though some do not.
I also couldnt care about the DVD market. Id buy films on DVD, but the series are broadcast in Japan. If I could get Jap TV, then I d be willing to pay for that. How about that then. DVDs are expensive because of marketing, so if there is no marketing in the US, then why are they still so expensive. All you have is the DVD cost plus supply. The material already exists in Japan.
Forget my 2cents, thats my $15 DVD’s worth.
Correction – there is no care taken with DVD fansubs, whereas Fansubbers tend to be diligent. If they are not, people normally download from one who is.
Technically, it is illegal to (re)distribute material if the one who has the copyright for it doesn’t allow it – at least in most parts of the world. Taiwan for example is an exception. I don’t even think it’s the whatever accent that annoys me in dubs.
1. I think there are two problems with dubs: 1. Cheap, untalented voice actors which simply seem to be in the wrong movie. I bet most of them never listened to the original Japanese VAs or may be the payment is so low that you can’t expect them to give a fvck.
2. Anime + English voices == Culture clash. Actually, most characters do not look Japanese or Asian at all. However, there’s a very obvious difference between American, European and Japanese animation. At least for people used to fansubs, this will seldom work – unless the dub is really, really good and/or the series strays a bit from typical Japanese animation. E.g., the Cowboy Bebop dubs are considered good and I’d say this series is definitely atypical.
Personally, I don’t care that much about physically owning a DVD nor DVD quality. IMHO, DVDs and such are rather meant for hardcore fans. I’ve never bought DVDs/VHSs for any domestic series. OK, as a child I bought a few audio MCs of my favourite series. But those were much cheaper (though not really cheap) and as a child I really listened a hundred times to the same story. I agree that Jap TV over satellite would be a pretty good idea as long as the price is fair.
According to ANN, there will be a 1.5 hour lecture at Harvard (by an MIT professor) entitled “Anime Fans and the Copyright Wars: What Should Japan’s Content Industries Do About Online Piracy?” on October 18. The lecture’s open to the public!
I don’t think it’s worth a flight ticket and my fingerprints. Anyway, wouldn’t Japanese consider it highly offensive to get suggestions regarding internal affairs? I kind of wonder, who and how they came up with this topic. The title itself is atypical for a scientific discussion as it’s pretty narrow and highly suggestive, maybe just provokative.
O/T: Hey willuknight what are the chances i’d see someone i recognize randomly like that (*knows u from kicl*)
Alright as an ex-fansubber i guess i should give my opinion. Firstly for some background, I was one of the original few fansubbers back when i started there were only a few very small IRC channels. I worked in and helped the business grow substantialy and also got a bunch of my friends into anime because of it. Since i have quit because it is a full-time job not ethical reasoning. Alright now i completely take the opposite side on somethings.
Fansubs ARE generally more high-quality the subtitles are done alot better. In the “professional” subtitling business there are no such thing as timers and they don’t use an extra person to typeset (the fun bouncing letters for songs and what not). Next we aren’t forced to go through dubbing (T.V. anime *vomit*). As for timeliness we generally can get anime subtitled in 1-3days from the time it was played (dattebayo does it in 20hours). This comparred to the 1-5years we wait for “professional” fansubbing. These two reasons combined are reason enough.
But to continue i have actually been pissed that alot of fangroups have “gone legit”. Firstly subbing unlicensed anime is STILL illegal so thats kind of pointless that you would drop all of the anime good enough to get picked up by the pros. Secondly if you knew half the laws made for the internet in the 80’s you would realize you are breaking one every few minutes. I’m sure this webpage is breaking hundreds. I am currently downloading music and anime and running on a pirated windows-XP. Chances are if you are a nerd that watches fansubs you are too.
So why play this silly ligitimate game. It’s illegal get over it however that doesn’t mean it is unethical! I think the RIAA and MPAA and the giant music companies which make money as useless middle-men then legally enfore it are sad. Much like the drug/food industry tppgether being able to sell the stuff and say what stuff is good for you, and make the laws. The internet was meant to be free, you aren’t hurting the artists you are hurting the distributors. Unless you think the artists gets 8$ per episode sold out of the 10$ it costs consumers. If they had a system where you could donate to the group that made it I would advertise it unerringly in every episode fansubbed.
What you say is very true, people don’t watch what they didn’t see yet, and if they watched it but didn’t get enough enjoyment out of it to buy a DVD…thing being anime is just a TV show most of the time and the prices over here in europe are just plain way too high i mean…paying 25-30 bucks for a dvd with only 4 episodes on it (this is avarage western european pricing), i think that’s insane and it definetly won’t spark a market for people unfamiliar with anime.
Sure I buy the occasional movie after watching the fansub, but that’s because i want it in high quality and for anime TV shows it doesn’t really matter, the animation quality is low compared to movies so as long as the video quality isn’t too low people will keep watching fansubs.
The standard of the quality of most fansubs is quite good in my opinion and cmon…you wont really buy a DVD of Naruto or Bleach if it’s just the same stuff but fit for a bigger screen.
In my opinion the pricing of anime tv series specifically should go a LOT lower then what they are right now, otherwise no one would simply buy it out of the blue just to see what it is and that’s what the marketeers should try to establish.
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